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Meeting_2005-11-07

Meeting setup

  • Date: 07.11.2005
  • Time: 10.00 Norw. time
  • Place: Wherever we are : -)
  • Tools: iChat, SubEthaEdit, phone

Agenda

  1. Opening, agenda review
  2. Reviewing the task list from two weeks ago
  3. Documentation - divvun.no
  4. Corpus gathering
  5. Corpus infrastructure
  6. Linguistics
  7. Speller infrastructure
  8. Other issues
  9. Summary, task lists
  10. Closing

1. Opening, agenda review, participants

Opened at 10: 07.

Present: Børre, Maaren, Saara (online), Sjur, Thomas, Tomi, Trond

Absent: none

Main secretary: Trond

Agenda accepted as is.

2. Reviewing the task list from the last meeting

Børre

  • Contact oahpahusossodat about texts
    • Not done
  • Gather public texts
    • Lot of texts from the Sámediggi
  • Continue converting text from input format to our xml
    • Texts haven´t been added to the corpus
  • Ask Thor-Øivind to move bugzilla to our new webserver
    • ... and update Bugzilla at the same time
  • install Marratech client to Maaren's computer
    • Done
  • install new XXE and the new XXE Forrest config for all (or check that it is installed and working)
    • Maaren has the new XXE
  • mark-up names
    • Some done
  • move existing corpus docs from gt/ to new corpus repository
    • Not done
  • Other
    • Have been programming a gui-program for maintaining the corpus, using Python and Qt.
    • Sorted out Maaren's problems with emacs (edited the .emacs file).

Maaren

  • continue working with the missing list from risten.no
    • not done
  • Start working on Sámi place names
    • worked a little bit
  • Start working at normativity issues (numeral issues with Trond?)
    • not done

Saara

  • Look at the corpus infrastructure issue
    • set up a mysql database for corpus metainformation (for testing). started with the scripts that move the information from corpus headers to the database.
  • Look at the corpus interface issue with Lars
  • make an emacs mode for the name project (cf. specs in the memo above)
    • done
  • look into efficient editing of the xml proper name lexicon (tools, modes, etc)
    • started working with this
  • start looking at conversion of the name lexicon from present format to xml
    • script namelex2xml.pl can be used for testing.

Sjur

  • Lule Sámi twol problems, look again at the sets definition with Thomas and Trond, Wednesday
    • Done, major progress
  • risten.no bugs and fixes
    • helped Pia get her editor back up and running. She can now finally edit the risten.no documents herself
    • xml-cleaned several of the sma grammar files
    • updated risten.no with the corrected sma grammar files (and an updated stylesheet)
  • discuss risten.no work with Tomi
    • not done
  • follow up on voice group-chat not working to Sámediggi
    • Test Marratech
      • install Marratech client to Maaren's computer
      • called Pål Hivand, he has been trying it
      • now also e-mailed him, still no meeting room URL
  • project planning with Trond, continued
    • also look at the development processes - specification and testing
    • settled for Merlin as the planning tool
  • Follow up on place names from Norge Digitalt
    • write an e-mail to or call Bjørn Olav Megard
      • not done
  • Evaluate SFST as speller (and analyzer) lexicon
    • more thorough analysis than was possible in Guovdageaidnu
  • write a background document on the corpus contracts
    • not done
  • Discuss the contract issue with Trond, return the new version to the lawyer
    • Call Kimmo Koskenniemi for comments, perhaps arrange a meeting with him
      • finally got hold of him, meeting next Tuesday
  • Follow up on meeting with Anders Kintel
    • Berit Karen will talk to Bitte, who will call him (or I will)
  • discuss kvensk project support with Trond
    • they called us before we got to discuss it. Anyway, it fits pretty well with our risten.no plans, so they will approach SD officially with a call for cooperation
  • write public tender documents
    • nothing more this week
  • buy:
    • new computer (project server)?
    • project management software
      • bought (Merlin)
    • OmniOutline (upgrade)
      • upgraded for the whole Divvun team
    • OmniGraffle (upgrade)
      • upgraded for the whole Divvun team

Thomas

  • do main markup in the present propernoun file
    • done what I can do
  • work on North sámi compounding and derivation
    • started to look at three-part compounds
  • Look at Linguistic bugs with Trond
  • Meet with Sjur and Trond about the definition of G1, G2, G3
    • Met and managed to define some consonant cluster-series

Tomi

  • Aspell: Continue working on the affix file & aspell
    • Contact aspell author (UTF-8 thing)
  • three-part compounding
  • corpus infrastructure: dtd location (both public and internal)
    • Not done
  • Document aspell and corpus infrastructure
    • Partially done
  • Specification for new catxml in C++
    • Did some modifications and testing with new and old catxml
    • this includes also placing the source and binary
      • Not done
  • clean the script/ catalogue with Trond
    • Discussed about in newsgroup
  • Common makefile issues
    • Discussed about in newsgroup
  • discuss risten.no work with Sjur
    • Scheduled to be done on Tuesday 8.11
  • discuss about xml-processing with Saara
    • Not done
  • look into efficient editing of the xml proper name lexicon (tools, modes, etc)
    • Emacs seems to be most efficient : )
    • XML tool should be able to open files in small bits, I know only one that is able to do so, and that tool is only for windows
  • start looking at conversion of the name lexicon from present format to xml
    • Not done
  • Look into synchronisation of proper names with risten.no
    • Not done
  • Other:
    • Added multiple authors to corpus interface

Trond

  • Work on the CG-related bugs on the bug list (7 open) (numeral related ones postponed.
    • I have not been in a postion to do that, have done more basic work, with Linda, and documentation
  • project planning with Sjur, continued
    • Had some discussion, schedules still open.
    • also look at the development processes - specification and testing
      • Not done.
  • Work on the name project:
    • Discuss the conversion with Maaren and Børre
      • Done.
    • mark up names
    • Much work done last week, now down to 4100 unassigned entries (they get harder)
  • discuss kvensk project support with Sjur
  • Work on the G3 bug issue with Sjur and Thomas
    • Done substantial progress on this front, cf. cvs log. Next issue is get the rest of smj done, and carry it over to sme.
    • Otherwise, I have been working on disambiguation.

3. Documentation

Documentation tasks:

Add documentation on our corpus infrastructure and our corpus work in general ( Børre, Tomi, Trond, Saara):

  • The directory structure is now settled (as of last meeting), and should be documented.

For the basic corpora, we need 2 additional types of documentation, or doc for 2 target groups:

  1. For the users/linguists: What corpus are found, how do I use them (this info is now scattered) (Part of the HOTWO USE is documented in the catxml docu The what documents are found where etc + an overall documentation is not written, since the corpus is so sparsely populated)
  2. For the collectors: How do I add texts, where do I add them, how do I convert them (this is (partly?) done in the Corpus Conversion document)
  • add/update Aspell documentation (Tomi)
    • Some documentation has been written, but there still is work to be done.
  • as always: document what you're doing: -) (all)

Divvun.no down again

Tomcat is running out of memory in between. Børre will look into changing to Forrest generating static html pages (forrest site), and serve those off of the standard Apache server. He will also look at utilizing Forrestbot as the tool to update the site, instead of our homegrown script.

4. Corpus gathering

Governmental documents (earlier in pdf, now in html)

Tasks:

  • move existing gov. documents (pdf) from gt/ to our corpus repository (Børre)
    • There are appr. 10 non-broken pdf documents in gt/sme/corp/original/ (the 31 files named stmelXXX.pdf in the corp/original catalogue contain a couple of pages each, together they constitute two distinct governmental papers, numbered 33 and 34.)
  • Collect public (pdf and html) files (Børre)
    • Done some test downloading, will have to look at tools to do this automatically.

Contracts

Tasks:

  • Follow-up on the lawyers' comments (Trond has started with the university)
    • Trond and Sjur finished the next revision of the contracts, and are waiting for comments from Kimmo Koskenniemi
      • Update: Sjur will meet with Kimmo on Tuesday this week (tomorrow)
  • add a background document explaining the model (Sjur)

The most problematic issue:

Who has the copyright of extracted material, like single words, collections of words, syntactic structure (potentially with some words filled in)? We need this to be controlled by us, not by the authors. The exact borderline is hard to define.

5. Corpus infrastructure

Updated task list:

  1. Make a system for file and directory permission (today: we all belong to the cvs group), to only allow people with root user privileges write access to the corpus repository, at least regarding original files
  2. Include the xsl files under version control (cvs? rcs?)
  3. Incorporate language detection as part of the corpus processing.
  4. we need a way to deal with hyphenated documents in catxml/preprocess:
    1. in normal cases hyphenation points should be removed
    2. when testing the robustness of our parsers, as well as when testing the hyphenator, the hyphenation points should be retained

Catxml performance testing

Testing done with xml files we have now in corpus base, there are seven (7) documents (9495 words). Results are below, the difference is about x30 for real time and x100 for user (processor) time:

Perl catxml:

sme$time catxml --all --lang=no -i=.
real    0m18.509s
user    0m17.753s
sys     0m0.426s

sme$time catxml --all --lang=no -i=. > /dev/null
real    0m17.033s
user    0m16.934s
sys     0m0.095s

C++ catxml:

sme$time /home/tomi/tagparser2/catxml -r *
real    0m0.827s
user    0m0.176s
sys     0m0.083s

sme$time /home/tomi/tagparser2/catxml -r * > /dev/null
real    0m0.183s
user    0m0.174s
sys     0m0.009s

Decision: C++ it is!

6. Linguistics

Name lexicon

Summary: see the newsgroup

The plan for this project was as follows: Two lines of work run in parallel:

  1. mane markup
  2. testing of conversion

When these two tasks are done (at some point in the future), the conversion will be done.

Status quo on the two lines of work:

The mark up of the remaining 3900 entries until conversion starts (People allocated look at the rest: Maaren, Ilona, Trond, Børre). This week's status quo is as follows (some 3900 names not assigned):

2170 LONDON
1275 BERN
 314 NYSTØ
  45 ACCRA
  42 ALEUHTAT
  19 MARJA
  17 NIILLAS
  14 HEANDARAT
   3 VARGGAT
   3 ANAR
   2 GIEDDI

The technical issues (specified in earlier memos: Conducted by: Tomi, Saara, Sjur. Sjur and Tomi will tomorrow Tuesday report back on a plan for using risten.no as editor for our name lexicon

North Sámi

  • three-part compounds issue still open
  • number project still open
  • normativity issues:
    • the Giellalávdegoddi meeting was last Friday, they will have a new meeting in December. They were not able to make any decisions, and there will be a new Giellalávdegoddi beginning next year who won't make decisions until late spring. This is a serious problem for the Divvun problem.
      • Sjur, with the help of Maaren has written to the Divvun board and to the Giellalávdegoddi. Now we are waiting for an answer.
    • The document with the list of open issues has been updated by Thomas. Maaren will update the last issue.

Lule Sámi

Sjur, Thomas and Trond will cont. Lule Sámi issues.

Tasks:

  • update the normativity issues document:
    • Px issue
  • G3 open issues (S2, some S3, S5, S6 and S7; Sx = Spiik, consonant series)

Numerals

The issue is postponed to next week.

  1. An empirical overview
    1. Numeral generation
    2. Numeral inflection
    3. Numerals as parts of compounds
  2. A clear concept of how we want to treat them
    1. Tagging
  3. A treatment
8
8       8+Num
8       8+Num+Acc
8       8+Num+Gen
8       8+Num+Nom

We will return to this issue after the name conversion.

7. Speller infrastructure

Nothing this week either.

8. Other

Technical issues

  • The mac os / perl bug (at least Trond and Sjur has it):
    • utf8 "\xC4" does not map to Unicode at /Users/trond/gt/script/preprocess line 82. This msg did not show up in 10.3 (perl 5.8.1), but does so in 10.4 (perl 5.8.6). It is probably a perl - OS mismatch. (Trond, Thor Øivind, Tomi)
      • Another example of the same bug:
      • : "\x{00c3}" does not map to utf8 at ../script/preprocess line 113, <> chunk 33.
      • One way to "resolve" this is to redirect the error messages to /dev/null:
... | preprocess 2> /dev/null | lookup ...

Video conferencing across firewalls

The problem we've had with the SD firewall persists, and there doesn't seem to be any resources available to help us. Geir Kaaby instead suggested we look at the Marratech package, and try it out. So please download the MacOS X client (or get it from me), and I'll send you the URL to the meeting room as soon as I get it.

Bug fixing

24 open bugs (and 23 risten.no bugs)

Bugzilla update

When Bugzilla is being moved, it should also be updated to the newest version, and the UTF-8 bug should be resolved.

risten.no

  • Organisation: could Tomi be used, in exchange for more linguistic work by (old) GIO members? Yes, it is ok, but how much still needs to be evaluated
  • it is ok to integrate "kvensk" placenames with risten.no
    • this should be integrated with the general proper name work - we want all proper names integrated with risten.no, df above
    • needs further development of risten.no to allow for multiple XML bases to be presented and maintained in parallel. This is to be further worked on by Tomi and Sjur

Binary files for downloading

As we move forward in the Divvun project, we need a place to store downloadable binaries, such as installation packages, speller updates, etc. This is also true for tools and configurations we make for our own internal development.

As I wrote in my task status in the previous meeting, I have fixed bugs and updated the XXE config, and I would really see that people start using it (it makes setting up and maintaining XXE configs much easier than before, and separates our config from the XXE installation). The update is available from the Forrest svn repository, but that is hardly a user friendly place to get it.

Thus, I need a place to store a zip file of the updated config, to make it downloadable directly from our browsers. And as I mentioned initially, the framework for this download area should be the same as for the public proofing tools later on.

Børre: have a look.

Meeting memo improvements?

Look at this: , especially the section "Simple Codes & the 30-Second Deliverable".

It gave me the idea that we could skip the task lists in the end altogether, and instead specify tasks at each point in the meeting, using codes similar to what is suggested at the link above, and use automated tools to exctract, collect and generate tasks lists. As it is now, we are really specifying tasks twice, and not in a consistent way.

But such automatic postprocessing does require some coding. Can we afford it, or are we satisfied with the present system?

Decision: nothing now, we can go back later if updating the task lists get too complicated or time-consuming.

Reimbursement of expenses

Should be filed before mid November. Whatever needs to be bought, should be bought before the end of November.

9. Summary, task list

Børre

  • Contact oahpahusossodat about texts
  • Gather public texts
  • Continue converting text from input format to our xml
  • Document the corpus directory structure
  • Ask Thor-Øivind to move bugzilla to our new webserver
    • ... and update Bugzilla at the same time
  • install new XXE and the new XXE Forrest config for all (or check that it is installed and working)
  • mark-up names
  • move existing corpus docs from gt/ to new corpus repository
  • divvun.no and giellatekno.uit.no
    • Binary files download area
    • Moving to static site, using forrestbot or something else.

Maaren

  • shall work with Sámi place names only
  • update the last issue in the North Sámi normativity issues document

Saara

  • Look at the corpus infrastructure issue
  • Look at the corpus interface issue with Lars
  • look into efficient editing of the xml proper name lexicon (tools, modes, etc)
  • start looking at conversion of the name lexicon from present format to xml
  • document corpus infrastructure, your own parts

Sjur

  • Lule Sámi twol problems, look again at the sets definition with Thomas and Trond, Wednesday
  • risten.no bugs and fixes
  • discuss risten.no work with Tomi
  • follow up on voice group-chat not working to Sámediggi
    • Test Marratech
  • project planning with Trond, continued
    • also look at the development processes - specification and testing
  • Follow up on place names from Norge Digitalt
    • write an e-mail to or call Bjørn Olav Megard
  • Evaluate SFST as speller (and analyzer) lexicon
    • more thorough analysis than was possible in Guovdageaidnu
  • write a background document on the corpus contracts
  • Discuss the contract issue with Kimmo, return the new version to the lawyer
  • Follow up on meeting with Anders Kintel
  • discuss kvensk project support with Trond
  • write public tender documents
  • buy:
    • new computer (project server)?
    • project management software
    • OmniOutline (upgrade)
    • OmniGraffle (upgrade)

Thomas

  • work on North sámi compounding and derivation
  • Look at Linguistic bugs with Trond
  • Continue to meet with Sjur and Trond about and work with the definition of G1, G2, G3
  • update the lule sámi normativity issues document

Tomi

  • Aspell: Continue working on the affix file & aspell
    • Contact aspell author (UTF-8 thing)
  • three-part compounding
  • corpus infrastructure: dtd location (both public and internal)
  • Document aspell and corpus infrastructure
  • Specification for new catxml in C++
    • this includes also placing the source and binary
  • discuss risten.no work with Sjur
  • discuss about xml-processing with Saara
  • look into efficient editing of the xml proper name lexicon (tools, modes, etc)
  • start looking at conversion of the name lexicon from present format to xml
  • Look into synchronisation of proper names with risten.no

Trond

  • Work on the CG-related bugs on the bug list (7 open) (numeral related ones postponed.
  • project planning with Sjur, continued
    • also look at the development processes - specification and testing
  • Work on the name project, mark up names
  • discuss kvensk project support with Sjur
  • Work on the G3 bug issue with Sjur and Thomas

10. Next meeting, closing

14.11.2005 10: 00

Closed at 11: 37